Peter Robinson：

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All right, from the Republic of Koch to the American Republic, you and your brother David have been active in supporting free market, libertarian think tanks, candidates, political causes.

好吧，从科氏共和国到美国共和国，你和你的兄弟戴维一直积极支持自由市场、自由主义智囊团、候选人、政治事业。

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It has been going on for years, you helped found the Cato Institute in 1977, right, when Cato was founded.

这已经持续了多年，1977年你帮助建立了加图研究所，对，那是时成立了加图研究所。

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And in recent years, you've devoted large sums of money to political causes, now you get beat up in the press for this all the time.

最近几年，你把大笔的钱投入到政治事业中，现在你却在媒体上一直受到打击。

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Senator Bernie Sanders campaigning for president Chris crosses the country, naming you and your brother by name as bad guys, right.

参议员伯尼·桑德斯在全国范围内帮助克里斯竞选总统时，指名骂你和你的兄弟是坏人。

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Charles, let me clue you in on something here, here's the way it's done, you retain a good lobbying firm in Washington quietly, you run the money through the corporation, not from your personal accounts.

查尔斯，我来告诉你一些事情，你是这样做的，你在华盛顿悄悄地保留一个不错的游说公司，你通过公司账户而非你的私人帐户来管理钱。

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You get what you need done to get the legislation and the regulation that you need to increase your profits,

你做到了你想做的事情，获得所需的立法和法规，以增加利润，

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and you keep your name out of the press, now why can't you see that?

你尽量不让你的名字上媒体，你为什么不明白呢？

Charles Koch：

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I see that perfectly and that's called corporate welfare, and that's one of the things that's destroying our country, we don't look at it that way,

我完全明白这一点，这被称为公司福利，这是破坏我们国家的事情之一，我们不这么认为。

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and I mean (we're) you can, if you've been pointing out where or I'm quite idiosyncratic in my approach to things, and that's true on politics.

我的意思是，（我们）你们可以，如果你已经指出，或我对待事物的态度很怪异，在政治方面，这千真万确。

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If we don't look at policies on whether it's going to make us more money or not,

如果我们不考虑政策是否会让我们赚更多的钱，

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we look at it will this help people improve their lives or will it make their lives worse,

我们只看看它能否帮助人们改善生活，还是会使他们的生活更糟糕？，

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and I see the biggest problem in the country, and I've complimented Bernie Sanders on this,

我看到了这个国家最大的问题，为此我赞扬了伯尼·桑德斯

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to get to that in a moment is that we're in and increasingly becoming a two-tiered society, that's destroying opportunities for the disadvantaged and creating welfare for the wealthy.

一瞬间就明白了，我们的社会现在正逐渐成为一个两阶层社会，剥夺了弱势群体的机会，为富人带来了福利。

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So the primary issues we're working on, one is criminal justice reform,

我们正在研究的主要问题之一是刑事司法改革，

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another is improving the education system, particularly well all through K through 12 and universities,

另一个是改善教育制度，特别是K-12和大学的教育制度，

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not only in policies, but in supplementing it.

不仅仅在政策上，而且还在完善政策方面。

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And we have a number of organizations that do that, then in creating more of an open economy,

有一些组织这样做，然后创造更开放的经济,

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So people who have nothing have the opportunity to get jobs, get started and create well-being and meaning in their lives,

这样，那些一无所有的人也有机会得到工作，开始在他们的生活中创造幸福和意义，

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and then that's on the one side, and then on the other side to oppose all corporate welfare, all benefits.

这只是一方面，另一方面是反对所有的公司福利、所有的益处。

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the analysis we've seen is that this corporate welfare is costing the economy probably at least five trillion a year out of a fifteen trillion economy,

我们所看到的分析是，在每15万亿的经济中，这种企业福利至少花费了5万亿。

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For example, the tax code alone as one and a half trillion of special benefits and exemptions in it,

例如，税法本身就有1.5万亿的特别优惠和免税,

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and so we oppose all of that, and we think no, get it like, as you know this country was in theory founded on the idea of “every human being has rights, unalienable rights, and there should be equal rights”,

因此，我们反对这一切，我们不认为，就像这样，你们都知道，这个国家在理论上是建立在“人人有权利，不可剥夺的权利，并且人人应该享有平等的权利”的理念之上。

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and because it the country, this country applied it a little bit, it became the most prosperous country with the greatest well-being of any in the history of the world,

因为这个国家应用了这一点，成为世界上最繁荣的国家，也是世界上福利最好的国家，

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but this was unique, all other countries were founded on the Divine Right of Kings or the Emperors, the god or the rulers have all the rights and the people have none.

但这是独一无二的，所有其他国家都建立在王权神授或君主制之上，上帝或统治者拥有一切权利，而人民没有任何权利。

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Now the tragedy in this country, which is haunting us today, is that wasn't fully applied, like it was not applied at all for blacks and Native Americans, they weren't even considered fully human.

在这个国家，现在萦绕在我们心头的悲剧是，它没有得到充分的应用，就像它根本没有应用于黑人和印第安人身上一样，他们甚至没有被完全认为是人类。

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They had no rights, so this has created a huge disaster in this country.

他们没有权利，因此在这个国家造成了巨大的灾难。

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Then women only had partial rights, and certain immigrants such as the Chinese and Irish and others only had partial rights,

妇女只享有部分权利，某些移民，如中国人和爱尔兰人以及其他人，只享有部分权利，

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and then this idea of corporate welfare we had this in the beginning, those who had an inside track got special deals.

然后，我们一开始就拥有的这种企业福利，有地位的人享有特别优惠。

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So just think if this country had been founded in a way that was true to the Declaration of Independence, what we could be?

所以试想一下，如果这个国家真的是以独立宣言的方式建立起来的，那么我们可以做些什么呢？

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And that's my ideal for the future. I think if we can move in that back to where we should have started from, we can create the greatest society, a better society than anyone ever dreamed up.

这是我构想的理想未来。我想，如果我们能回到那个我们应该开始的地方，我们就能创造出一个比任何人想象的更伟大、更美好的社会。

Peter Robinson：

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Charles look, so that's, so here's the argument.

查尔斯，看，所以，这就是争论点。

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I just have to put it to you, this is from the, here's the argument, I said you get beat up in the press all the time.

我只能告诉你，这是从，这是争论点，我说你在新闻界一直备受打击。

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Here's a, from a recent article in The New York Times, quote the Koch brothers and a small number of allied plutocrats, you can tell he's not on your side,

纽约时报最近发表的一篇文章中提到科赫兄弟和少数联合财阀，你可以听出他们没有站在支持你们的立场，

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you're talking about your friends as plutocrats， have essentially hijacked American democracy using their money not just to compete with their political adversaries but to drown them out, close quote.

你说你的财阀朋友们已经基本上劫持了美国民主，财阀们不仅用钱与政治对手竞争，而且用钱来麻痹他们，引用结束。

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This notion that, somehow you're too wealthy that because you're as wealthy as you are, you have too many resources, it's unfair for you to weigh in in politics, because you just have more than others.

这种想法，不知何故，你太富有，因为你们都很富有，你们有太多的资源，所以你在政治上施加影响是不公平的，因为你拥有的比别人多。

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How do you handle that?

你是怎么处理的？

Charles Koch：

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Well I mean look at the at the money that we raise that goes into politics, which I mean we have a budget this year of let's say five hundred million for all our activities,

嗯，我的意思是看看我们筹集到的政治经费，我的意思是我们今年有预算，比如说我们所有活动的预算是五亿，

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the great majority that goes for education for this new organization we're building called “Stand Together”,

大多数为我们成立的这个名叫“团结一致”的新组织所接受教育的人，

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which works with these groups who try to improve the lives of disadvantaged people, particularly minorities,

与那些试图改善弱势群体尤其是少数民族的生活的团队合作，

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and that's so exciting, that if we can really help these people to expand their capabilities and then think tanks getting the ideas out for pushing for better policies, and just a fraction goes into electoral politics.

这是如此令人兴奋，如果我们真的能帮助这些人提高他们的能力，然后智囊团拿出更好的主意来推动更好的政策，而政治选举只占一小部分。

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As a matter of fact, I have said, okay, we're going to race.

事实上，我说过，好吧，我们将要去比赛了。

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Let's say, over two year period, we raise 750 million total. I've been saying that probably 250 and that will go in politics，but because of our disappointment in the primaries and that I think it'll be significantly less than that

比如说，两年多的时间里，我们总共筹集了7.5亿美元。我一直在说，大约有2.5亿美元用于政治活动，但是如果我们对初选失望，我认为用于政治的钱将远远低于2.5亿。

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And when our total will be about the same, because there's more interest in these new things from our donors.

当我们的总数大致相同时，因为我们的捐赠者对这些新事物更感兴趣。