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[参考文献] TTT 第一课 >> Good Profit 柯赫采访 Part I（中英双语文字稿） > 第四节

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I remember he had been a tough taskmaster, and he had worked me to the bone I thought

我记得他是一个严厉的工头，他以前不停地使唤我

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and one of his favorite sayings: Being Duchess, you can tell the Dutch but you can't tell them much.

他最喜欢的一句谚语是：作为公爵夫人，你可以谈论公爵，但你不能告诉他们太多。

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So I thought my god, I don't want to go back and get more of what I grew up under。

我想，天啦，我不想回去，不想再经历小时候做的事情。

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So I said, “thank you very much, but I got different career paths.”

所以我说：“非常感谢，但是我有不同的职业发展方向。”

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So a couple of months later he called me back, and he said:

几个月之后，他再次给我打电话，他说：

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“Son, if you don’t come back to run the company, I'm gonna have to sell it, because I don't have long to live and I have no successor.”

“儿子，如果你不回来管理公司，我就得把它卖掉了，因为我活不了多久了，我没有接班人。”

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And he says, I'll tell you what, our main company is a company called Rock Island Oil Refining.

他说，我告诉你，我们的主公司是罗克艾兰炼油公司。

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We don't have a refinery, we have crude oil gathering system and we bought an interested, another refining company,

我们没有炼油厂，我们有原油收集系统，我们收购了另一家我们感兴趣的炼油公司，

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and but we have a separate business that you boys are on and I put it in your name, it’s a very small company,

但是我们有一个独立的业务，我用你的名字命名这个公司，这个公司非常小，

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but it makes refining equipment, Koch, it's called Koch Engineering,

但是它制造炼油设备，科赫，公司名叫科赫工程，

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and it's not doing well, I haven't paid any attention to it

业绩不太好，我没有花心思管理它。

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and I'll let you run that any way you want

我准许你按你想要的方式经营

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the only thing you need my approval on is you want to sell it.

唯一需要我批准的是，如果你想卖掉它。

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Now I said, hey, get to run it,

这个时候我说，嘿，我来管理它。

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So rather than consulting people on how to run companies, I can go run one.

与其向人们咨询如何管理公司，不如动手去管理一家公司。

Peter Robinson：

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And how old are you at this time?

你那时候多大？

Charles Koch：

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I was 25, and so I came back, and it was wonderful, he was absolutely true to his word.

我当时25岁，所以我回来了，太棒了，他绝对信守诺言。

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He let me run it, and and it was such a mess and I didn't know what I was doing,

他让我经营公司，当时公司乱的一团糟，我不知道我在做什么，

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but even with a little experience I had, I could make great improvements in it,

但即使我只有一点点经验，我也能在这方面做出很大的改进，

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and and it blossomed and so then he turned over a lot of the other company.

而且取得了非常好的效果，后来他把其他公司也交给我管理。

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He actually made me president in 1966 as his health was really deteriorating, and then he died in 1967.

1966年，他让我当总裁，当时他的病情正在恶化， 1967年他去世了。

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So I got to work with him for six years.

我和他一起工作了6年。

Peter Robinson：

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With your dad for six years, from sixty-seven on, you mentioned your siblings, at some point, you and your brother David bought out your siblings’ interests.

和你父亲一起工作了6年，从1967年开始，你提到了你的兄弟姐妹，在某个时候，你和你的兄弟戴维买下了你兄弟姐妹的全部股份。

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You remain CEO of the company for what's nearly half a century now.

你在这个公司当了近半个世纪的首席执行官了。

Charles Koch：

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That's right, correct.

是的，正确。

Peter Robinson：

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Now I want to return once again to Good Profit.

现在，我想接着讨论《做大利润》这本书。

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I just read the way you had come to the conclusion that the best society was a free society, private property, freedom of speech, and so forth.

我读了你得出的结论：最好的社会是自由社会、私有财产、言论自由等。

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Here's another quotation from Good Profit that continues that thinking.

还要一段引言来自《做大利润》，它延续了这一想法。

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I'm quoting you, as I digested this it dawned on me that these principles, principles of liberty freedom and so forth, are fundamental to the well-being, not only of societies but also of organizations, companies, which are essentially small societies, close quote.

我引用你的话，当我理解这一点时，我突然意识到，这些原理、自由的原理等，不仅对社会的福祉至关重要，而且对那些本质上属于小团体的组织和公司来说，都至关重要。

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So I want to make sure I have this right.

你看看我说的对不对。

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Koch Industries, this gigantic enormous successful company as we see it today,

科氏工业集团，我们今天看到的庞大成功的公司，

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back in your mind, in the mind of young Charles Koch in the late 60s, your father's gone, now you're in charge, Koch Industries is an experiment.

在你看来，对60年代末当时还很年轻的查尔斯·科赫来说，你的父亲去世了，公司由你负责，科氏工业集团是一场经历。

Charles Koch：

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Yes, right.

是的，对。

Peter Robinson：

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You get to test your beliefs about human nature on this company.

你试着在这家公司测试你对人性的信念。

Charles Koch：

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That's right. That's correct.

正确。说的对。

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Oh yeah no I had, when I was doing it even even when my father was still alive, I was trying these,

哦，是的，不，当我做这个的时候，甚至在我父亲还在世的时候，我都在尝试做这些，

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but the way I came about this is, as I said, I was very interested in the philosophy of science,

但是我做的方式，正如我所说，我对科学哲学很感兴趣，

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and and I came across this essay of Pliny's called The Republic Of Science, and in which he outlines how scientists work together to create the most innovation and advance scientific understanding,

我偶然看到普林尼的一篇文章《科学共和国》，他在那篇文章中概述了科学家们是如何共同努力创造最具创新性、最先进的科学认识，

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and a key part of that, well one part is to get all kinds of dispersed and desperate knowledge together,

其中一个关键部分，就是把各种分散的知识聚集到一起，

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that's how you get innovations when you have these conflicting ideas together, and out of it come something new,

这就是把这些相互矛盾的想法放在一起获得创新的方法，并从中得出一些新的结论，

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And another part is, which I also learned from Karl Popper, that the scientific method is to articulate a theory that's refutable,

而另一部分，这也是我从卡尔·波普尔那里学到的，即科学的方法是提出一种可反驳的理论，

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right, and then to spend as much time trying to disprove it as proven

对，然后花点时间去证明它是错误的。

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and he goes through what societies have done that, in which one and those who apply this method,

他经历了社会已经完成的事情，人们在社会中运用这个方法，

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that these free societies are those the progress and others like the communist societies, who have what's politically correct and don't allow other ideas to compete with it,

这些自由社会是进步的，其他的，例如共产主义社会，他们在政治上设立了正确思想，不允许其他思想与之竞争，

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don't progress, because they go down the wrong track.

不会进步，因为他们走错了方向。

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So I said okay, we need this kind of challenge culture, the skepticism in our company,

所以我说，好吧，我们公司需要这种挑战文化、怀疑态度，

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and so we're gonna build a culture of challenge, that is you're a supervisor at any level,

我们要建立一种质疑文化，也就是说，不管你是哪个级别的管理者，

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and your people don't challenge you, you've got to change your ways or you can't be a supervisor,